Is not being paid for training normal?

Question

I'm a recent college graduate, and I recently had a interview with a company for an entry-level programming job. The company told me that they require two months of unpaid training for all entry level programmers.

The reason given was that since they are providing free training, there wouldn't be any compensation.

Is this normal?

Update For other junior developers looking at this:

Don't go for these type of scams. This was my first interview. I interviewed with 10 other companies around the area and got about 9 job offers from them. I worked for a fortune 50 company for 9 months with good pay and recently found a better opportunity for even better pay and better work. I guess moral is to be patient and have confidence in yourself.

Answer 1

Sounds like a scam, not a job. Nigerian job offer? heh. I have never worked at, nor know anyone who has worked at a place that would require something of the likes of that in the field of software development in over 12 years of experience from startups to gov't to edu to fortune top 20. Keep looking - it will only get worse.

Answer 2

The previous responder [edc] gives his age as 19 on his profile, which limits his experience with the job market. I'm old enough to be your guys' father, and, no, it isn't normal and it may not even be legal. (It's legal if they are doing nothing but teaching you. It's a violation of typical Wages and Hours Acts once you start coding for them.)

The job market is pretty good for coders right now. If you have a good degree you can do better.

Answer 3

Doesn't sound normal from my experience. Sounds like they want to test you out before having you officially start and not have to pay unemployment if you don't work out. Not very legal. The real question is, do you have other options and can you afford those two months without pay, also can you risk them dropping you after the training?

Answer 4

Absolutely not.

I am also in the beginning of my career. I graduated from a fairly good US public university with CS degree in December 2009. I got good, but not excpeptional, grades. I kill it on any coding tests I've been given but had zero professional experience upon graduating. No internships, no open source, no significant research. I live in the Northeast USA. The way you speak of your college, it sounds like you are at least as well positioned as I was.

Since then I have successfully obtained 6 job offers, the least of which was at $45k with a good benefits package. Nothing resembling unpaid training at all.

Furthermore, I have a not-insignificant criminal record. This disqualifies me from a good portion of the job market, including just about anything even tangentially finance related. Despite this, I have received 6 job offers that stuck and several others that were last-minute revoked due to my past. I currently work at a job I enjoy at $65k yearly. Your position seems better than mine was, so you should be able to do at least as well.

I can't overemphasize that you can do better than this. We are an in demand field. Make sure you've got updated resumes/profiles on Monster.com, CareerBuilder, StackOverflow Careers, CyberCoders, etc. Most (if not all) of the jobs that panned out for me DID NOT come from me applying. They came from companies or recruiters contacting me after seeing my resume on some of the above sites.

Good luck and don't sell yourself short.

Answer 5

It happens, atleast here in India. I cant really put a quantity to it but it is not unknown. However, to the best of my knowledge, it is rare for the big , trusted IT companines to do such this. I strongly feel that a company that does not pay during training period cannot be trusted. Traning freshers is a cost that is balanced against an oportunity. It will be recovered from a client sooner or later. Some companies (read cheap or low on budget) may feel it is justified to not pay trainees during the learning period but it ignores the fact that the trainees have expenses to meet. At least a stipend of 50% of promised salary is in order, if not the full pay. Other companies justify it saying that trainees may drop off or leave after training for another job which means that the organization does not recover the cost. If you have a bond then there is no justification for not paying you.

Answer 6

I've seen similar stuff happen, but never zero pay.

Check the credentials of the company. If they are reputable, then investigate some more. Some reputable companies might take you in on a small retainer for training, not a full wage, and give you full wages when you have completed training.

But like others have said it must be 100% training. If you produce any work, then you should be paid for it. This can be the smallest legal salary, but there must be some pay to justify you working for them.

Answer 7

There are 3 fundamental questions here:

1. Are there written records of these conversations with the company/their offer that mentions the going unpaid thing?
2. How much does the training cost and can the company justify the cost equal to 2 months of your salary?
3. Are you the 1st person in this scheme or all employees in this company go through similar training?

Frankly I have never heard of something like this. At the very least you should be provided some stipend that covers your living + travel costs.

Answer 8

Only time I've ever seen no-pay contracts was for interns needing a few months of work experience as part of their university courses. In those cases the company serves as a training ground, and gets some work done in payment.

Answer 9

A well-run company doesn't require two months of training, paid or not, for new hires. If there are industry- or company-specific skills they need their employees to have, that's understandable, but it shouldn't take two months to teach those skills, and it definitely shouldn't be unpaid, especially if the training is specific to that company - it would do you no good anywhere else, so it does you no good to waste two months waiting for them to decide whether or not they'll keep you. (Two months of, say, certified Oracle training might give you something marketable, so you might get value out of it, but it still doesn't make up for two months without a paycheck.)

A well-run company that expects you to be trained in something prior to paying you for working for them will not hire you until you have that training.

Working for a poorly-run company can be tolerable if you're getting paid well enough: it's not as good as working for a good company and making good money, but it's a start, and it may help you figure out what you want at your next job. Working for a poorly-run company for no money is a bad idea.

Answer 10

Based on your description, this sounds like a violation of the Fair Labor Standards Act.

From the Department of Labor's website:

1. The internship, even though it includes actual operation of the facilities of the employer, is similar to training which would be given in an educational environment;
2. The internship experience is for the benefit of the intern;
3. The intern does not displace regular employees, but works under close supervision of existing staff;
4. The employer that provides the training derives no immediate advantage from the activities of the intern; and on occasion its operations may actually be impeded;
5. The intern is not necessarily entitled to a job at the conclusion of the internship; and
6. The employer and the intern understand that the intern is not entitled to wages for the time spent in the internship.

http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.pdf
http://www.dol.gov/whd/contact_us.htm

All 6 must be true for an unpaid internship to be legal.

NT Times article on the subject.

Answer 11

• Either the company is trying to be cheap or too careful.What does this tell you about they way they would treat you and pay you if and when you are actually hired?
• If they are not in a position to pay you even a stipend during the training.They are probably in a big financial mess and you can expect things like delay in pay or no pay due to improper fund allocation might.
• It would not be surprising if you found this company amongst the blacklisted ones.
• I am sure you search you can find background information regarding this.
• It Is Illegal In Most countries. As John aptly said Sounds like a scam, not a job. Nigerian job offer?

Answer 12

Under no circumstances would I accept a job like that! Training is work and you are entitled to be paid while doing it. This would be a very poor company to work for.

Answer 13

Company should count with fact, that newcommers need some training first. And companies should pay that and take it as an investment. Because more knowledge of employee = more value from him. Just keep looking for another job if you can.

If you can't you can still give it a try (if no other options, or you just want) because on the other side.. that training might be valuable for you (depends on quality of training). You can take designers, webdevelopers etc. for example.. many of them start doing things for free and they are building their portfolios with it, which they will later use to sell themselves for some real (and not cheap) cash.

Different situation would be, if you were senior with years of experience of course, but given, that you are jut leaving school...

I don't know if it's normal or legal in your country, but I have already heard about similar offers if I remember correctly.

Answer 14

Yeah, sounds normal to me...What sounds weird about it?